Don''t you hate to see this? [Archive] - SoundAndVision Magazine Forums

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akula

February 9th, 2003, 20:53

A sad story- local stereo shop is closing.<a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/C154883353E0BB2686256CC70074C88E?OpenDocument&Headline=For+many+independent+audio-video+stores,+it''''s+closing+time" target="_blank">http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/C154883353E0BB2686256CC70074C88E?OpenDocument&Headline=For+many+independent+audio-video+stores,+it''''s+closing+time</a>

Kazaam

February 9th, 2003, 22:29

That does make me sad, despite the impression I may have given on the Circuit City thread.I guess I''m just too young to have appreciated a time when we relied more on "Mom & Pop" places. Having never enjoyed seeing the hi-fi hobby thrive in the 1970s (it did, didn''t it?) with lots of little shops, I guess I have little resistance to the big chain business machine.I''m usually just glad when a smaller chain, such as Audio King or Sound Center is around to provide me with some slightly more upscale products and maybe a little more upscale listening environment.Nonetheless, I recognize it is sad to see the local stereo shops closing. It sickens me to read about folks who USE brick and morter stores---especially mom & pop outfits---and then buy for less on the internet. (Whether or not the store had a salesperson who provided much of a service or not, it''s just an abuse. That kinda thing is "somewhat" OK from a "pick off the rack" place like Best Buy where no one has to help you, but not in a small store.) In a perfect world, I''d still have my Audio King, Sound Center, and even Best Buy as its mix of music, movies, and video games is often a fun shopping visit; but I''d also have a plethora of Mom and Pop shops to peruse. Yeah, I really coulda "dug" that kinda scene man!

RussKon

February 9th, 2003, 22:30

i agree...the type of customer who uses the local dealer and then buys online is really killing the local dealers...actually, those customers will be the first ones to complain when they have no one locally to answer their questions....not to mention if they ever have service problems with their equipment purchased online....on more than one forum, i got into several heated debates with people who felt that their local shops should match online prices....of course they have no clue how much it takes to maintain an inventory, pay employees, provide benefits, pay a mortgage, and all the associated costs of keeping a local business open...sorry...don''t mean to rant....russ

Haywood

February 9th, 2003, 23:01

That is sad. I have some personal policies that I follow, because I do value service: 1. I only buy online if I can''t buy it locally. I bought my Marantz equipment from Hifi.Com, because there are no Marantz dealers in town. 2. If a sales rep spents quality time showing me a piece of gear, I feel obligated to buy it at that store should I choose to get it. Sometimes I pay a little more, but I''ve found that these stores really take care of regular customers and I''ve always made out better in the long run.

Bob_R

February 9th, 2003, 23:29

Iï¿½ll pipe in on the sad part. And admit Iï¿½m a hypocrite at the same time.Just last week I visited a high end shop and felt a lot of anger about ignorant customers, MP3ï¿½s, internet sales..etc.But they did not help their cause at all:- No SACD or DVD-A setups because "no one knows what they are all aboutï¿½. - so educate me! - The only customers, who buy a B&W sub instead of a Velodyne, are the money is no object types who want to match all their name brands. - When I asked to take home a B&W sub home to try in my house, I was met with a very cool ï¿½we do not rent our equipmentï¿½. - All the quality subs were in the audio room, only one cheaper ï¿½air moverï¿½ was in the video room. - which flat out, undersold them.- At a different dealer: two trips, and a warning phone call, resulted in the PW 2200 (which I wanted to buy) to be unavailable to demo. - I had to tell the guy to turn off, the mains with the powered subs, while I listened to my second & third sub choices.So, I bought through the Internet.I gave them the best shot I could. rolleyes.gif border=0< February 09, 2003: Message edited by: Bob R >

tvtech

February 10th, 2003, 01:49

My commrad and I operate a warranty service station for many brands. Sometimes I will go to a home where the customer as bought a big ole Mits or other big boy and cannot operate it or any other piece he has. They usually say the saleman didn''t show use how to... well the seller gets charged. I like the idea of one on one sales and service. One day I guess every one will learn a deal sometimes ain''t a deal< February 09, 2003: Message edited by: tvtech >

February 10th, 2003, 13:11

Yes, it''s sad. I have mixed emotions. I know a small local place that recently halved its size & can''t seem to deal w/the "new reality" very well. They think that they can still get away with an openly hostile attitude towards anyone who doesn''t automatically accept their "audiophile" opinion about everything, or who asks about how their prices & rtn/exchange polices compare to Best Buy or Circuit City. I allowed myself to be snowed by one of their salesman, & while he may feel he "won" because I bought, the problem is that I would''ve bought a more expensive item from him in a few weeks, but he lied to me & told me they weren''t going to carry it, because, I believe, he thought that like the people in the news article, I wouldn''t actually be back. So I''m never going to buy from his "audiophile" store again, altho the product I bought is ok, not a dud, just not my first choice. On the other hand, I''ve had very good experiences with a couple of other small local shops, and I hope they stay afloat.< February 10, 2003: Message edited by: meestercleef >

rmyAddison

February 10th, 2003, 18:54

I live in Addison (North Dallas). There is a street, Preston Road, that has four high end boutique type HT stores. A half mile away an Ultimate Electronics opened, shortly followed by a Tweeters almost next to it.Although the UE and Tweeters have huge selections, not really going high end, but respectable, the people who work there in general have no where near the knowledge of the folks at the Preston road stores.....but the hurt is on. I waiting to see which boutique goes first. It''s free enterprise, nobody is breaking the law, unless you call mis-informed buying a crime...... I still go back to the Home Theater Store where they know me by name, I do get discounts, and they don''t go HUH? when I ask about the specs of my next upgrade.Rich rmyAddison

StartOver

February 10th, 2003, 21:38

Sad indeed. I have sseen that around me a gew times in the last 3 months.

Prozakk

February 10th, 2003, 23:09

Seeing pronouns doesn''t usually get me upset.

owlbcnu

February 11th, 2003, 15:50

What is it they say? It''s always the little guy who gets the shaft.

Kazaam

February 11th, 2003, 19:48

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by owlbcnu: What is it they say? It''s always the little guy who gets the shaft.<hr></blockquote>And K-mart. wink.gif border=0 (Note: I actually really DO like K-mart---or the Big K as us regulars call it.)Bob R~ You''re so right on about hi-end stores and the "B&W" vs "Velodyne" subwoofer thing---at least in my experience. Of course, I did end up getting the Velodyne but it doesn''t make it any less true.

randy

February 12th, 2003, 12:02

That sucks, The Speaker and Stereo Store was definitely a cool place. I have bought a few things there and sent several referrals there. Wylie and the boys were very helpful and well informed. I wondered why I stopped getting their newsletter. I know that was one of Wylie''s pet peeves, the customer who goes to the brick and mortar and then buys form a chain or internet. Specialy shops are a great resource and we should encourage our friends and family to buy from them, otherwise we will all end up with those box thingys with cute little lifestyle speakers. mad.gif border=0 randy

RJWOOD

February 12th, 2003, 13:27

That is a shame. I bought my first cd player with them years ago. I personally do not like the major chains when purchasing my electronics, but it seems we may not have many more choices. Hopefully the other individual shops in town stay around and are not forced to close their doors as well.

TKE_BetaEta964

February 12th, 2003, 13:40

Wow, that is a shame. That is/was a cool store... Since I am away at school, does anyone know what kind of specials they are running to clear things out. I may have to take a trip home for a night to pick some things up.

saea501

February 12th, 2003, 15:11

This is just a damn sad commentary on the way the general public views making a major purchase. If its on the internet I can get it for cheap!Does it matter that you don''t know how, or if it works properly when you get it? Naw, I got it for cheap! Is this prospective new owner disappointed. Hell yes.....and I''m sure he then blames the manufacturer for whatever the problem is. Which, more than likely is an operator malfunction. No problem, just call the local hi fi store...they''ll help me out. You''re not kidding they''ll help you out....which way did ya come in?I guess I just don''t see this intense obsession with saving a few dollars. I am most certainly not made of money, but it is sure as hell worth it to me to spend a little extra and have some people to fall back on if I have the need. I shop at a little sort of boutique hi fi store that has friendly people that are knowledgeable and that offer me discounts without my asking. They do me favors, they give me things, they trust me and I trust them. The only thing new I buy off the internet are DVDs and CDs, and then it is not that often.The "knowledgeable salespeople" at most of your big box stores are neither knowledgeable nor are they salespeople. They are order takers. They have no clue, nor interest in what they are selling. Their main interest is how loud and how thumpy it gets. Makes me want to puke. I HATE TO SEE THIS INDUSTRY GO IN THIS DIRECTION!!But it’s our own damn fault. How many times a day do we see our own beloved members on this forum talking about buying a new receiver or speakers off the internet. Stuff that could well be bought from a hi fi specialty store. Please don''t misunderstand. I am certainly not opposed to saving money, but we ought to save it while supporting the stores that provide the assistance we ask for when making a major purchase decision.Sorry for the rant but this crap really warms me up.Bob

Barney

February 12th, 2003, 15:39

Calm down saea! I''m with you buddy, my SVS sub is internet only, my Marantz SR880 bought here at a family business, NHT main''s & center speakers from another family store, Pioneer DVD/Karaoke from Mars (chain store), but I did get my NHT rears & Marantz amp (no one had one, would have to special order & wanted full payment to order-wouldn''t take half-this is from the family store I bought my receiver from a few years back) from authorized dealers off internet. I do think that some folks "use" stores to check out then buy off the net which in turn makes the store "gun-shy" when a stranger walks in to look at something.So I understand your feelings, but all I can do is keep in touch with the few stores that treat me as a Human & if they have what I want, I''ll buy it there. Treat me like "here is another stupid SB" sorry I''m out the same door I came in.Barney

akula

February 12th, 2003, 21:15

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TKE_BetaEta964: Wow, that is a shame. That is/was a cool store... Since I am away at school, does anyone know what kind of specials they are running to clear things out. I may have to take a trip home for a night to pick some things up.<hr></blockquote>I am not sure just how low they go, but it would be worth the trip. I may head down there on Friday. I have never been there (I am more of a Hi Fi Fo Fum guy).

Yesfan70

February 12th, 2003, 22:45

This is sad. I have a question though. Is this the same stor that carries Martin Logan, Dynaudio, Mark Levison, and the like? if it is, I think I have actually stepped foot in that store. One of the times I visited my brother in St. Louis, he took me to that store. I still can remember the sound of the Gladiator soundtrack on those Dyns. Awesome.

randy

February 13th, 2003, 02:12

No, I don''t think that''s the same store. Speaker and Stereo carried Parasound, Atlantic Technologies, Pinnacle, Sony, can''t remember others. But, no Dynaudio and Mark Levinson. I am not sure, but that sounds like it might be Flip''s. I have never been to Flip''s so I ain''t sure. randy

akula

February 13th, 2003, 13:20

Dynaudio and Levinson are probably Flips. Never been there either (too many of these stores are in South County). Or it could have been Best Sound- that place has some serious high end gear as well. Hi Fi Fo Fum and the Sound Room both have stuff that spans most of the price ranges out there.

RJWOOD

February 13th, 2003, 15:46

Flip''s carries Klipsch, Denon, Vandersteen, Revel, Magnepan, and Merk Levinson. They use to be located on Watson Rd by Crestwood Mall but have moved to Town & Country Plaza. Stopped by there a few weeks ago. Nice small family owned business that has been around for about 30 yrs. They have some very old equipment on display that I have never seen before. For example, a cassette style player that plays cassettes the size of vcr tapes. Very interesting and knowledgable salespeople. Bestsound on the other hand is located off Lindbergh. Much larger store but also independent. They have a very nice setup in one of their Ht rooms. Theatre seating, large screen, and hidden speakers. If you have the opportunity stop by and take a look.

Bob_R

February 13th, 2003, 22:41

Hmmmï¿½..Yup, I bought a sub through the net. That was the first time I gave my credit card number out for anything but software.After spending a month listening to B&M subs, I learnedï¿½.What B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch, Boston Acoustics, Mirage, and Revel sound like.What Mits, Sony, Loewe, Panasonic, Pioneer, and Samsung look like.What Macintosh, Yamaha, Denon, B&K, and Levingston feel like.Try that, on the net. wink.gif border=0

Yesfan70

February 14th, 2003, 00:09

All I remember was it had a simple name. Something like "The Stereo Store", "The Hi-Fi Shop", "Stereo Shop" etc.To you St. Louis members, it seems like it was near Growler''s Pub (another awesome place). Sound familiar?I might have to call my brother and find out.

akula

February 14th, 2003, 03:16

Yesfan- it was probably The Sound Room. I am pretty sure they are still over on Olive Rd. (next to the large luxury car dealership). It could have been a Hi Fi Fo Fum, but none of those brands ring a bell from the last time I was there, and they are no longer over on Olive.But there is a Growlers down in South County too. That is a great place. How many punches do you have on YOUR card? With 132 beers available, it has to be good. biggrin.gif border=0

joe6pak

February 14th, 2003, 12:55

yesfan & others.A stereo store called Music For Pleasure sells Dynaudio, Krell, Martin Logan. It is located on Big Bend Blvd. They have some nice sound rooms. I''m surprised you St Louis guys couldn''t come up with this information. Mark one up for the hillbilly from Arkansas.joe

TKE_BetaEta964

February 14th, 2003, 13:48

I used to work near growlers... With any luck I will be working in the same location over the summer. I have spent many lunches at The Sound Room, Hi Fi Fo Fum, and Ultimate Electronics. smile.gif border=0

BBYZED

February 14th, 2003, 17:54

I do hate to see that kind of thing happen because I am not fond of buying online. I like going to a store and getting the personal attention, and then I know someone is there if I have a problem.Case in point: I went to a local shop to buy a stereo for my car. First I went to a few shops and got prices. Then once I decided exactly what I wanted, I went to this shop to buy them. I was quoted $1700 for the components. Unfortunately, the salesman had forgot to add one pair of speakers. Rather than screw me, he said, "I misquoted and forgot a pair, so I''ll charge you $1700 for the rest, and toss in the other pair for nothing". I''m sure they still made a profit, but where do you think the first place is I go when I''m looking for something A/V? I always check at that store first. And that salesman still remembers me. After I had it installed, he asked me to come back to the store so he could hear it. I did. I''m thinking of some Paradigms for home audio now, and they sell them. I''ll go check there first. Can''t get that kind of service from a computer!

Yesfan70

February 15th, 2003, 14:18

I think that''s it, Music for Pleasures! Big Bend Blvd does ring a bell. Thanks Joe.As far as my Growler''s punch card Akula, I only have two. Not good frown.gif border=0 Don''t forget, it''s hard for me to keep them punched when you are about 8 hours away in Tennessee.I wished we had a Growler''s here.

randy

February 17th, 2003, 15:05

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by joe6pak: yesfan & others.A stereo store called Music For Pleasure sells Dynaudio, Krell, Martin Logan. It is located on Big Bend Blvd. They have some nice sound rooms. I''m surprised you St Louis guys couldn''t come up with this information. Mark one up for the hillbilly from Arkansas.joe<hr></blockquote>Joe, I believe that store is fairly new and whaen I say that i mean less thatn ten years old. Quite frankly I think it''s a lot newer than that. I have never been there and just recently heard of it, so that may be why it was not mentioned.randy

MWP

February 18th, 2003, 14:32

Sure, I dislike seeing smaller speciality shops fold, yet that''s just part of the consumer business cycle. Sometimes a shop will last several generations, sometimes it will only be around for several months. "Dumb Luck" also counts in this cycle. frown.gif border=0 "Williams observes: "There is not much customer loyalty left. Americans consider themselves to be pretty savvy about business - because they are Americans. They want the cheapest price. Service is something they expect to be free - if they ever need it."Better service does not by itself increase customer retention or loyalty. Rather, good service is the minimum requirement needed to operate a profitable customer retention or loyalty program. If your service stinks, adding a customer retention or loyalty program will make it much, much worse. Trust me. If you want examples, email me. Been there, done that. Customer loyalty describes the tendency of a customer to choose one business or product over another for a particular need. In the packaged goods industry, customers may be described as being "brand loyal" because they tend to choose a certain brand of soap more often than others. Note the use of the word "choose" though; customer loyalty becomes evident when choices are made and actions taken by customers. Customers may express high satisfaction levels with a company in a survey, but satisfaction does not equal loyalty. Loyalty is demonstrated by the actions of the customer; customers can be very satisfied and still not be loyal. Customer loyalty is the result of well-managed customer retention programs; customers who are targeted by a retention program demonstrate higher loyalty to a business. All customer retention programs rely on communicating with customers, giving them encouragement to remain active and choosing to do business with a company. There are at least four separate strategies an enterprise can use to improve customer retention, and each is effective in its own way, depending on the nature of the customer base and the enterprise''s capabilities. In order of their increasing effectiveness, they are:1. Customer recognition 2. Loyalty purchasing 3. Product quality and customer satisfaction 4. Customization and collaboration1. Customer Recognition. The elements of a customer recognition program should be both personal and practical. If a customer is an MVP then he is almost certainly valuable enough to warrant some level of actual human contact, or at least a zero-defects, customized letter.2. Loyalty Purchasing. This is what frequent flyer programs are all about. Buying customer loyalty is the first instinct at most large firms when they are faced with significant customer attrition. But as a tactic it has limited long-term utility. It is easily matched by the competition, and it often smells to customers like just another cheap marketing promotion. In the long run, purchasing a customer''s loyalty is not much different from reducing the price to attract new customers.3. Product Quality and Customer Satisfaction. There is no substitute for quality. No customer will return for more of a bad product, so having product quality at least on par with the competition is essential for a 1to1 enterprise. Keep in mind, however that customer satisfaction by itself is usually not sufficient to generate loyalty. Only stellar performance seems to have any measurable benefit in terms of customer loyalty at all. 4. Customization and Collaboration. By far the most effective strategy for keeping customers is for a firm to customize its service to each individual customer''s needs, allowing the customer to "teach" the firm how he likes to be served, and then giving the service or product back to him according to those specifications. In this way, the more the customer teaches the firm, the more difficult it will be for him to obtain an equivalent level of service from another firm. The firm then gives back the service or product back to him according to those specifications. This is the nature of a "Learning Relationship" with a customer, a relationship that gets smarter and smarter with every interaction...

rmyAddison

February 18th, 2003, 14:48

Ms. P,How do you REALLY feel..... smile.gif border=0 Just teasing, I read every word.I really do try to be loyal if it''s a mutual respect relationship. I buy everything from a local Home Theater Store unless they don''t carry it, or can''t get what I want. The rep has always been honest with me, and didn''t take advantage of my early ignorance when I first got into HT.The McIntosh/B&W 800 room will haunt me until I have upgraded myself to that plateau.....

February 19th, 2003, 01:19

Hate to remind everyone but "this happens" everyday in everytown in our country. Look at all the mom and pop shops in every service inducstry, manufacturing, farming, banking...... that are no longer here.It is a function of the way our country and its citizens want things. Any buyer including myself will not knowingly pay more for an item or service unless it can be justified. The magic word is justified. Justification for paying more is a tough pill to swallow. Ask yourself why you bought the computer you are typing on. Ask yourself why you shop at the particular grocery store. Ask yourself why you borrow your buddies dvd''s instead of buying them yourself. Ask yourself why you are living in the place you do right now.Even if you frequent high service electronic stores you probably are not willing to pay more to the retail store for shoes, or for toilet paper. That is the point. Business''s must do something to seperate themselves from the masses or be swallowed up in the big ocean of commerce. Being a good guy or having a history doesn''t matter.SOF

saea501

February 19th, 2003, 13:35

Quote from SOF: ================================================= Being a good guy or having a history doesn''t matter ================================================= If I understand this statement correctly, I very much disagree. Being a good guy....If this means not only being cordial and respectful but also knowledgeable, then it does indeed mean something. I for one am sick to death of going into stores and having some snotty, ignorant kid acting like I am bothering them to accept my money. Having a history.....If this history is knowledgeable, interested, concerned people, here again this very much means something. Something for which I will more than gladly pay a higher price. I spend my money at places (not just hi fi) where people actually act like they care I am in their store. Unfortunately these kinds of places are becoming harder and harder to find, and as poor service and disrespect becomes the norm more and more of the buying public will be more accepting of it. This is a condition that I will not accept and as a result will continue to patronize stores where I can find decent service.Bob

akula

February 19th, 2003, 20:03

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by saea501: I spend my money at places (not just hi fi) where people actually act like they care I am in their store. Unfortunately these kinds of places are becoming harder and harder to find, and as poor service and disrespect becomes the norm more and more of the buying public will be more accepting of it. This is a condition that I will not accept and as a result will continue to patronize stores where I can find decent service. <hr></blockquote>I second this one. In several instances I shop at more expensive stores out of convenience or concerns for service. When it comes to expensive electronic equipment, I can''t fathom buying from a fly-by-night unauthorized internet dealer (the authorized online ones charge about as much as the local shops). If something goes wrong, who do you go to? Most internet shops forget about you once they ship the product and pocket your $$$.

BenWhipple

February 20th, 2003, 17:58

There is a reason that wal-mart is the largest corperation in the world. And that reason is low prices rule,everything else be damned. The buying public belives that the lowest price = best value. It is obvious that those who take the time to educate themselves see the value of individulized customer service, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. Personaly, I will not ever spend another dollar at wal-mart, even if they do have the cheapest diapers. Have to take the power back, give it to the people!!!!! lol, well maybe its too late, but I''ll give what I can to the cause.

Barney

February 20th, 2003, 18:07

Correct me if I''m wrong, but Wal-Mart started out as a Mom & Pop store.....Barney

Zelmo Zackus

February 20th, 2003, 22:05

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Barney: Correct me if I''m wrong, but Wal-Mart started out as a Mom & Pop store..... Barney<hr></blockquote>In 1945, Sam Walton gets a franchise for Ben Franklin store in Newport, Ark. though it''s hard to believe today, discount retailing was a controversial concept when it began to gain ground in the ''50s at stores such as Ann & Hope, which opened in a reclaimed mill in Cumberland, R.I. Traditional retailers hated it, and so did manufacturers; it threatened their control of the marketplace. Most states had restrictions on the practice. When the business began to emerge in the early ''60s, Walton was a fairly rich merchant in his 40s, operating some 15 variety stores spread mostly around Arkansas, Missouri and Oklahoma. They were traditional small-town stores with relatively high price markups. Walton was an active student of retailing -- all family vacations included store visits -- so by the time a barber named Herb Gibson from Berryville, Ark., began opening discount stores outside towns where Sam ran variety stores, Walton saw what was coming. On July 2, 1962, at the age of 44, he opened his first Wal-Mart store, in Rogers, Ark. That same year, S.S. Kresge launched K Mart, F.W. Woolworth started Woolco and Dayton Hudson began its Target chain. Discounting had hit America in a big way. At that time, Walton was too far off the beaten path to attract the attention of competitors or suppliers, much less Wall Street...

Barney

February 21st, 2003, 00:53

Thanks...I remember the Woolworth store growing up, bought many model cars/planes/ships there. So where have you been "old timer"?Barney

joe6pak

February 21st, 2003, 18:15

Skula.You wrote "Most internet shops forget about you once they ship the product & pocket your $$$." That is very true, but can also happen when shopping at a brick & morter store.Last fall I spent a pretty good chunk of change at a store. This store is a 4 to 5 hour drive from where I live. In a peroid of about three weeks I made the 8-10 hour round trip three times in order to demo and aquire the stuff I wanted. I was treated good at the store, not pressured and given good advice with good demonstration of the gear. During this time I communicated with them via phone & email. I negotiated a fair deal, and am happy with my purchase. I spent over $15000. (Krell & Dynaudio) My only problem is that since I pulled out that last day I have not heard one word from them. I would have thought that they would have made at least one follow up call or email to see if the stuff was o.k. and was I happy. More perplexing is the fact that they knew I was interested in more of their gear which would be worth another $3000 to $5000 in sales. It just seems weird to me. I have not had any problem with any of my gear and really think that if I did, this place would take care of me. Comments welcome.Barney,As you already know you were right about Wal-mart. Sam did start out little. He made a bunch of people rich if they were wise/lucky enough to buy his stock years ago. Long term employees who took advantage of the stock purchase plan at work did quite well. joe

BSpielbauer

February 21st, 2003, 23:16

Sad, indeed.I frequently patronize three medium to high end audio / video shops. However, I also have bought about half of my equipment on-line. I rarely ever buy from Best Buy or Circuit City (they are good for buying print cartridges for PC printers, and DVDs, software, CDs, etc.)I have made efforts to reward a salesperson (and shop) who was truly able to help with information, informed advice, service, etc. However, I also believe in getting the maximum "bang for my buck." So, I strike a compromise. When I have done all of the legwork, I feel no guilt about buying over the net, and seeking out the best price from a reputable dealer. This was true on my DVD player, and my receiver, for example. No dealer helped me in these buying decisions.However, on other items (my RPTV, my speakers), I was able to audition at some stores which helped me immensely. (None of these were Best Buys or Circuit Cities, of course -- their salespeople are only usually trained in how to counter a refusal when they offer an extended warranty on a $59.99 item). In every case, I made my final purchase at the store which really helped. The salesguy who let me compare lousy signal feeds and even a VHS VCR on a 65 inch television, so I could determine exactly how "bad" these would look, was rewarded with my money. Yes, I did get a lower price quote, but then I deliberately drove 24 miles back to the Mom and Pop place to give the guy a chance to match it (which he did, of course). Similarly, on speakers, I rewarded the guy who lugged the correct model of receiver up from the basement, unpacked it, and let me help him hook it up, so I could listen to my own receiver with his speakers. I did not buy THOSE speakers, but I made certain he did get my money on the speakers I finally chose. His advice was spot on, in every case, he knew hist stuff, and he clearly enjoyed his job.I will not pay exorbitant markups on my equipment. But, I will patronize those stores which hire professionals and train their salesforce, and encourage them to learn their trade. This means that the Best Buys of this world will simply not get my money on hardware.-Bruce in Chi-Town