New Video Card and HDCP compliance.

[Maximo]

<div>All.&nbsp; As some of you might know I am in the prusuit of a one box solution.&nbsp; Some call it an HTPC.&nbsp; I call it an MFHTPC.&nbsp; Anywho, I have some cash given to me from my mother (who will be visiting soon) and I pretty much have to have it spent before she gets here.&nbsp; Anyway, the one weak point of my computer is the video card.&nbsp; It is an EVGA Nvidia 6200 256 MB card (with the optional purevideo HD software).&nbsp; Anyway, I am still troubleshooting my Beyond TV performance.&nbsp; Its not the cards fault but still the card is a little wimpy and I would like to get a new one.&nbsp; The new card would have to do three things&nbsp; 1).&nbsp; Hardware video accelleration (vs. overlay which makes primetime too dark).&nbsp; 2). Play games: better performance is desirable.&nbsp; But ultimate performance is not necessary.&nbsp; 3).&nbsp; Play HD DVD''s or hopefully, eventually blue ray.&nbsp; </div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div><a id=Cards href="http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductCompare.asp?Category=38&amp;Nty=1&amp;N=2010380048+ 4017+1069609639&amp;Submit=ENE&amp;Subcategory=48&amp;CompareI temList=N82E16814150190%2CN82E16814150163%2CN82E16 814102069">http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductCompare.asp?Category=38&amp;Nty=1&amp;N=2010380048+ 4017+1069609639&amp;Submit=ENE&amp;Subcategory=48&amp;CompareI temList=N82E16814150190%2CN82E16814150163%2CN82E16 814102069</a></div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>Anyway, I am giving these three cards a serious look.&nbsp; I am certain that you can tell which is the front runner.&nbsp; Although, if I don''t have the processor to properly run HD DVD or blueray (P4 3.4 mhz w/ 800 mb fsb and 1 mb cache)&nbsp; then I guess the Nvidia cards will be just fine.</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>Anyway can get some input from the peanut gallery please?</div><BR>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>I am using an ATI X1300 256MB video card in my 2nd generation HTPC and it works perfectly with MCE. The video quality is absolutely stunning using the WinDVD MPEG decoder and both SD and HD programming is as good as I get from anything else I have seen on my TV. It is fully DVI 1.0 compliant, which includes support for HDCP and conversion to HDMI via cable adapters, though I haven''t needed to test that. </div><BR><div>In the labs at my employer, nearly all of the lab&nbsp;desktops they are using to test BluRay and HD-DVD playerback and recording software for future products have this video card in them. When I asked why, they said they are getting better performance per dollar from the X1300 than anything from nVidia, and we are a HUGE nVidia partner. Basically, they feel ATI has done a much better job of focusing on the CE Video performance and compatibility than nVidia who is the current price/performance leader in gaming video cards. </div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR>

[Maximo]

Well!&nbsp; That''s about as good an endorment as it gets right?&nbsp; Thanks Howard.&nbsp; <BR>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>This analysis article claims you need at least an ATI X1600 and preferably a X1800 video card to get full, or mostly, off-loaded HD-DVD and BluRay decoding solution. </div><BR><div><a href="http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=1&amp;id=2161">http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=1&amp;id=2161</a></div><BR><div>Note what they say about nVidia. </div><BR>

[Maximo]

Hmph!&nbsp; Ain't that something!&nbsp; Does that mean that because&nbsp; I have a single core CPU that I need a monster video card compensate?&nbsp; I'm kinda bummed.&nbsp; Wanted that 1600 with the HDCP and HDMI. But if it ain't gonna cut the mustard with my single core I might as well punt and wait.<br><br><BR>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>I am using a Core 2 Duo CPU in my HTPC, so that could account for part of the excellent performance. All the labs at my employers are filled with Dual Core CPUs as well. That is the future - it is hard to find a new PC which isn''t dual core, or better. </div><BR>

[Maximo]

<div>Well, I am stuck with what I have.&nbsp; Due to circumstance more than poor choice.&nbsp; Anywho, I am going to get the card and see what it can do for HD TV and games.&nbsp; I only have a 720p tv and while I know I will see a difference I am going to wait.&nbsp; I am going to wait and see who wins the format war and also wait and see what people come up with in the real world.&nbsp; Like everything else, the blueray decoding process will get streamlined some how and maybe I can use my HTPC.&nbsp; If it doesn''t ge streamlined and I need more power I will water cool my system and OC the crap out of it.&nbsp; When it blows, I will buy a new system.&nbsp; Premade and at least dual core.</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>But I am going to be the guinnee pig (sp?) for this card for a couple of different forums.&nbsp; So more to follow.</div><BR>

[Maximo]

Well, after reading that article a bit closer I have a question.&nbsp; Is blueray going to stick with mpeg2 compression?&nbsp; If so, I''m all set.&nbsp; According to that artical MPEG2 is a cupcake compared to MPEG4.&nbsp; Anyway, another good thing is that I have a 720p tv. This card should have the horsepower to pulloff 720p no problem.&nbsp; I have read some reveiws stating that they use this card to watch HD DVD with good results.&nbsp; So we will see.&nbsp;<BR>

[Maximo]

<div>I am beginning to see the forest for the trees.&nbsp; Check this out:</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div><a href="http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_information/Section-13563/Section-13564/Index.html">http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_information/Section-13563/Section-13564/Index.html</a></div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>"Also on the application layer, the HD-DVD format incorporates many compromises. As the capacity is not likely to be sufficient to encode a full-length feature plus additional bonus materials using the MPEG-2 format, different and stronger encoding formats need to be used. Although Blu-ray Disc offers these advanced codecs as well, the disc has such high capacity that publishers can still use the MPEG-2 encoding format at bitrates up to 54 Mbit/sec. As MPEG-2 is the de-facto standard used in almost any industry involved in digital video (DVD, HDTV, digital broadcast), many authoring solutions are available. Chances are high that a full line MPEG-2 encoding suite is already available, which can be used with no or minor adaptations to encode High Definition content for Blu-ray Disc."</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>That is why blueray will win.&nbsp; HD DVD has so much less storage capacity that they have to use MPEG4 to be competative.&nbsp; Everyone will probably stick with MPEG2 and go with Blueray.&nbsp; Couple that with the already broken HDDVD copy protection and your have your self a blueray christmas.</div><BR>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>In fact, BluRay already lost the hearts of millions of people by NOT going to the newest and latest compression technology with the initial releases. Remember when the Samsung player came out with the flawed video chip and everyone blamed the poor image quality on the use of MPEG-2? Add to that the fact that all the new distribution technologies are going to H.264 (MPEG-4) in order to get a better image from a lower data rate, and you have a marketing fiasco for BluRay trying to use MPEG-2. Think about it, if HD-DVD, DirecTV, and IPTV providers are all going to go to H.264 in order to get force their extremely limited technologies to support true HD programming, and they are all going to claim that MPEG-4 is just vastly suppior to MPEG-2 (what else can they do?), how can the BluRay manufacturers not follow suit, even if it does make it harder and more expensive to encode and decode the video stream? </div><BR><div>I''ve been saying all along in my threads about IPTV and Satellite providers using H.264 that the encoding schemes are extremely expensive and not very good (though they are pretty accepable now) and that going to H.264 isn''t an improvement unless they increase the data rate. </div><BR><div>No, we are stuck with the new, harder to process, video schemes going forward, and the marketing war has already been won regardless of any facts on the issue. </div><BR><div>This is no different than people like Apple and Microsoft claiming their lossless audio codecs are capable of being "better" than CD quality (after all, they can offer 18bit to 24bit samples sizes and higher sampling rates, thus they must be better, right?). </div><BR>

[MDRiggs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD><b>Date:</b> 1/21/2007 12:18:55 AM <b>Author:</b> Maximo<BR><div></div><BR><div></div><BR><div>That is why blueray will win. HD DVD has so much less storage capacity that they have to use MPEG4 to be competative. Everyone will probably stick with MPEG2 and go with Blueray. Couple that with the already broken HDDVD copy protection and your have your self a blueray christmas.</TD></TR></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></div><BR><div>MPEG-4 is already being used on many Blu-ray releases, I believe. It''s a better codec than MPEG-2 (too bad it wasn''t developed in time to be incorporated in the HDTV standard), and in a few years the computation load will not seem like a big deal anymore. If AACS has indeed been broken in a generally applicable way, <i>that</i> could be a serious problem for HD DVD. I can''t quite decide how I feel about that. On the one hand, I''ve always considered HD DVD a better engineering solution than Blu-ray because its disc structure simplifies disc manufacture and the design of multiformat (CD/DVD/HD DVD) drives. (Blu-ray''s disc capacity is drastic overkill for home video.) On the other hand, having one of these formats go away quickly probably enhances the probability that at least one will survive.</div><BR>

[IrritateGuy]

Keep in mind that OTA HD broadcasts are basically utilizing a 19Mbps data rate and MPEG-2. BluRay offers 54Mbps throughput and thus offers significantly more bandwidth for higher quality MPEG-2 performance. However, IPTV providers which offer MPEG-4 HD programming are using about 6Mbps per HD channel, which is tiny. If BluRay were to offer MPEG-4 at 54Mbps, think of how high end that would look. <BR>

[Maximo]

Well.&nbsp; I may never buy either.&nbsp; Might just bypass the whole darn thing and wait for netflix to roll out their High Movie downloading service.&nbsp; No I haven''t heard that they are working on one or anything, but if they aren''t, they''re morons.<BR>

[MDRiggs]

<div><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD><b>Date:</b> 1/21/2007 2:05:40 PM <b>Author:</b> Howard Roark<br>BluRay offers 54Mbps throughput and thus offers significantly more bandwidth for higher quality MPEG-2 performance. However, IPTV providers which offer MPEG-4 HD programming are using about 6Mbps per HD channel, which is tiny. If BluRay were to offer MPEG-4 at 54Mbps, think of how high end that would look.</TD></TR></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></div><BR><div>Normally there''s a point beyond which increasing the data rate ceases to improve the perceived performance, though. I forget the numbers, but the Sony Blu-ray discs with MPEG-2 coding weren''t running the video at anywhere near 54 Mbps.</div><BR>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>MDRiggs - The performance of the CODEC will vary depending on how it is tuned. Most midrange systems use industry or manufacturer defined tunings and thus have a point of dimishing returns above the anticipated top data rate. However, retuning the CODEC to maximize image quality for higher data rates, which is an option for the commercial&nbsp;non-real time CODECs and very highend (and expensive) programmable DSP real time systems can provide higher performance. </div><BR><div>Most real time H.264 compression engines are engineered to operate between 4Mbps and 16Mbps and they most highly tuned for the 4Mbps to 8Mbps range. This is an evolving technology, and in a couple of years I don''t think we will even be having this sort of conversation. As long as the cable or IPTV providers give each stream sufficient bandwidth, we will be satisfied. However, based on the cable industry''s track record of compressing the living daylights out of their digital channels, I don''t have high expectations. </div><BR>

[Maximo]

<div id=post_message_235220>Ok, I have the card, it is in my machine. I haven''t gotten to play with BTV yet. I did find that F.E.A.R. does not like this card. When I try to play on the "detected setting" it is like playing in the dark with no flashlight. I can see a couple of thing but the majority of the environment is dead black.<br><br>Also, my sony TV won''t see the HDMI input when I wake up the machine. I have to reboot to get a picture.</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>BTW, F.E.A.R. is a video game with pretty high vid card requirements.</div><BR>

[yromj]

<div>Max,</div><BR><div>Did you try making sure the TV is off when you wake up the machine?&nbsp; Also, you might to wait a few seconds after the machine is awake to turn on the TV.&nbsp; Then you might need to wait a few more seconds for the handshake to complete.&nbsp; </div><BR><div>Just a thought.</div><BR><div>John</div><BR>

[Maximo]

<div>Got it.&nbsp; The issue was with setting the BIOS to Repost VGA from S3 (for all of you computer nerds out there ;)</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>So far so good, my machine is starting to work really well.&nbsp; I need to get the audio to work now.&nbsp; I have two channel on my tv but no pass thourhg to the reciver.&nbsp; Hook up chain is HTPC via HDMI to TV then TV to Receiver via toslink.&nbsp; And yes the toslink does work because just the tv as the source provides sound.</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>More set up to come.</div><BR>

[yromj]

<div>Scott,</div><BR><div>Your TV most likely will not pass audio on from the HDMI input to the optical output.&nbsp; The optical output will only send out the audio the TV''s internal digital tuner decodes.&nbsp; You will need to run an optical cable from the HTPC to the receiver.</div><BR><div>John</div><BR>

[yromj]

<p>Slight hijack:</p><BR><div>Does anyone know if ALL ATi 1950 series cards are HDCP compliant?&nbsp; ATi''s website mentions HDCP as a capability of their chip:</div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><p><b>Make the most of your PC</b></p><BR><p>The Radeon X1950 is the ultimate upgrade for your multimedia system. It sets an industry standard for image quality in photos and DVD movies and provides full support for HDCP content. </p><BR><ul><BR> <li><span class="trigger triggernormal triggerhover">Rediscover your photos and video with the Avivo� video and display engine and experience a billion more colors¹ than ever before </span><BR> <div class=" elementcollapsed">&nbsp;</div><BR> <li><span class="trigger triggernormal ">Ready your multimedia system for HDCP and watch high-definition content</span></li><BR></ul><BR><div><span class="trigger triggernormal ">Anybody 100% sure?</span><BR><div>John</div><BR></div><BR>

[jstwong]

John, I think it is really tough to say "for sure" on every video card out there that is using the ATI x1950 chip.&nbsp; Since there are so many video card vendors, and variants from those vendors, I think it is really best for you to just look at the specs of the particular card you are considering buying.&nbsp; However, if you are buying an ATI made x1950 series&nbsp;video card, then I would say "yes" they are all HDCP compliant.&nbsp; At least I''ve never heard of or seen an ATI x1950 series video card that was not.<BR>

[Maximo]

I would say that the 1950 is up to par.&nbsp; My 1600 just doesn''t seem to have the nuts to properly decode HD using 3d acceleration.&nbsp;<BR>

[yromj]

<div>I called Powercolor last week and asked them if the card I was considering was HDCP compliant.&nbsp; They said it was, so I ordered it from Newegg.&nbsp; It''s due in tomorrow.</div><BR><div>I bought the x1950Pro w/ 512MB GDDR3.&nbsp; That should suffice for a while.</div><BR><div>John</div><BR>

[jstwong]

Let us know how your new video card works out for you.&nbsp; The x1950Pro is a nice card at a reasonable price.&nbsp; I was thinking about getting one for my old system as well.<br>

[IrritateGuy]

<div>A whole new line of video cards based on AMD''s (formerly ATI) R600 GPU will hit the shelves in March.</div><BR><div>The release will lower the price of all the X-series cards and possibly bring feature or performance benefits which justify waiting. </div><BR><div>&nbsp;</div><BR><div>Just a heads up. </div><BR>