Re: onkyo versus integra

Hi all. I have a problem and I need your advice. I have $1000 to spend on a new receiver (in and of itself, not a problem). For this amount of money, I can afford either an Onkyo 797 (w/ THX select), or an Integra DTR-6.3 (without THX select). From everything I''''ve heard, the Integra line is really a step-up in terms of material (and hopefully audio) quality, but is the sacrifice of the post-processing that goes along with the THX select certification worth it? Thanks for your help!

Anyone?

I wouldn''t say that the Integra is a step up in materials, but they do add a few amenities, including removable power cords, A-BUS (a multi-zone feature), gold-plated RCA jacks, an extra year on the warranty, et cetera... Much of it is custom-install stuff. Their specifications are also extremely close to their Onkyo counterparts. Keep in mind that you could probably pick up an Integra 7.2 (the equivalent of the Onkyo 797) for close to $1,100 or so. Also, there is the Denon 3802, which goes for less than $1,000 at many places.<p>I have to say though, that I haven''t been terribly impressed with Integra''s customer service. For instance, I ordered a catalog online from them and never received it. If your company cannot pull itself together long enough to mail out marketing pieces to potential customers, I have to wonder how it approaches other aspects of the business, including manufacturing, delivery, and technical support.

[Masherbrum]

dmeister, I take it you haven''t read the catalog. if not, why would you tell someone that a product that IS A step from Onkyo, isn''t? Just because you didn''t get a freakin'' catalog from them doesn''t mean you tell someone that crap. Go online and order another, Jesus!!! I got mine within a week, and went to the dealer and got another one, it''s a dang catalog!<p>Dan, the ENTIRE Integra line is a big step up from Onkyo. They use a better power supply in the amp section, larger capacitors and transistors, THICKER - detachable power cable. Better build quality than an already well-built Onkyo. They ARE worth the extra buckshee.<p>The choice is yours I could tell you to look at the 3802(3) till your blue in the face, but your ears need to hear it. If you have decided on it, obviously you like it, the hard part is then over for you. Buy what you like, as it is your money, not ours.<p>I hope this helps.<p>Masher

[Cargui]

Go get ''em, Masher! <p>Dan, while Masher may ooze youthful angst and appear a rebel without a cause, he actually simply cannot tolerate the dissemination of misinformation. He''s pretty experienced. What I like about him is that he''s not one of these guys with $35K worth of audio/video equipment in his house who can''t relate to the "regular" joe. (There are a few guys like that in the forums, but it doesn''t discount their knowledge or experience; they will simply recommend expensive solutions based on their own budget/tastes). Masher is a normal guy who loves AV and is pretty darn good at it. <p>And he''s also very correct about Onkyo vs. Integra. It''s like Toyota vs. Lexus or Honda vs. Acura. Which would you rather drive? <p>And do think seriously about the Denon 3802. You can get it for $850-900 at authorized dealers. I''m getting either the 3802, the 3802 + a Rotel amp, or a full Rotel separates config. But obviously anything other than option #1 (Denon only) puts me way out of the &lt;$1,000 category.<p>Good luck, dude.<p>Cargui

[TKE_BetaEta964]

I would have to agree with masher on this one (and cargui) I would much rather have the Integra version of my Onkyo reciever than the one I have now. Integra is definately worth the added cost, everything is built better and just all around a better unit. <p>Dmeister - just because you didn''t get your catalog doesn''t give you the right to rip on a product. I can''t tell you how Onkyo''s tech support is because I have never had to call it! Since you ordered your catalog online there is a good chance they never got the order. I can''t tell you how many catalogs I have requested from companies and never got. Online orders are easily misplaced. Especially if the company is working on the website when you order, chill out and order another catalog it happens. Another thing that could of happened is it could of gotten lost in the mail, delivered to the wrong house, etc.<p>< April 25, 2002: Message edited by: TKE_BetaEta964 ></p>

Thank you everybody for your helpful responses. One additional question though... I recently contacted an authorized dealer of Integra products to inquire about prices, and he told me the Integra DTR 7.2 was no longer available. Has anyone else heard about this model being discontinued?

[TKE_BetaEta964]

I have no idea. It is a good possibility though. Onkyo just released a new product line, so the Integra line might of done the same thing. I wouldnt doubt that being the case.

Masher and TKE --<p>First of all, I do have a catalog, which I acquired from a local Integra distributor.<p>Second of all, had you looked at that catalog, you would have realized that many of Integra''s components look IDENTICAL and perform IDENTICALLY to Onkyo''s comparable products. (Integra does throw a silver knob in here and there.) The DPT-1 300 disc changer, the new DPC 5.2 changer, the ADM-1, and so on, for instance, are all little more than Onkyo components with Integra placards (and a few of those amenities that I mentioned earlier). Now consider the popular Onkyo 797 receiver and the comparable Integra 7.2: They provide INDENTICAL specs for power, dynamic power, and distortion. They provide the same basic feature sets (aside from those that I mentioned already), including 2 wideband component inputs, THX Select certification, Y/C separation, etc. They even provide faceplates with the same basic functions and displays. Now, I have never taken a look inside these two machines, but I have to wonder what Integra''s "better power supply" and "larger capacitors and resistors" have gained the 7.2 here, if it is rated identically to the Onkyo? Furthermore, many of the Onkyo receivers even weigh more than the comparable Integra receivers. Obviously, some of that will revolve around the casing and chassis and such, but what about all of those "bigger" parts that you mentioned?<p>Thirdly, I didn''t "bash" Integra''s products, I simply expressed concern that -- given their poor marketing support -- their overall service would be somewhat suspect to me. Had you read my post more carefully, you would''ve seen that I never claimed that Integra wasn''t a step up from Onkyo, I simply stated that the materials weren''t necessarily a step up. For that matter, I even listed many of the amenities that Integra does add to their products.<p>Lastly, neither of you had answered Dan in the day or two prior to my response (which I only provided after his second plea), so I''m surprised that you were so quick to judge my response. I would also question how substantive those replies were (if not conjecture), since I don''t think the average consumer would find vague claims like "better power supply" (if that is indeed true) particularly relevant if the units perform identically otherwise (by the way, is there something wrong with the Onkyo power supplies?). I did provide very specific differences between these two lines, not disinformation.<p>Moreover, TKE, please remember that you have no more right to your opinions in a public forum than I have to mine. And, also remember, I was just trying to provide some assistance, based upon my own experience (which I was very clear about). I apologize for this lengthy reply.<p>< April 26, 2002: Message edited by: dmeister ></p>

[mangwhop]

I didnt get my catalog either..but im still buying the Integra 6.3 in June when it comes out.. time to try something other than sony for once in my life.

[Masherbrum]

You are incorrect Dmeister, and yes you were bashing them, which is your right. But, when you compare two CLEARLY different products you must expect this. You don''t compare Pioneer to Pioneer Elite do you? Didn''t think so. Integra is far better than an already good Onkyo. THEY ARE WORTH THE EXTRA BUCKSHEE!!!!CASHOLA!!!!!DINEROS!!!!!!<p>Masher<p>Cable still sucks<p>< April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Masherbrum ></p>

[Masherbrum]

Oh and one other thing I did a very good job with Dan''s question. Thanks for calling, thank you for calling.<p>Masher

[TKE_BetaEta964]

I was under the impression I answered Dan''s question too. He asked "is integra worth the extra cash" I basically said "yes" <p>I am not going to get in a personal "I said, you said" match. It just isnt worth my time, because frankly I don''t care. But I will say that I respond to posts that I feel I can make a contribution to, when I see them. I replied to it as soon as I saw it, the next morning.<p>I think Dan has changed his mind anyway; he posted a question about marantz.

Masher, not to be offensive, but I still think you are providing little more than vague innuendos and unsubstantiated conjecture. What exactly about my statements were incorrect? Are you saying that the 7.2 does have different specifications than the 797? Are you saying that 5.2 changer isn''t virtually identical to the Onkyo? Are you saying that I did "bash" Integra''s PRODUCT somehow? If you are going to make such accusations, it would certainly show a little more tact if you would at least provide evidence or some specific examples to support your point.<p>Keep in mind something else about Integra and Onkyo. These units are not differentiated in price by more than 15 to 25% in most cases (and in some, much less than that). Given their comparable performance, comparable construction, and comparable feature sets for most units, it is not quite the same analogy as Pioneer Elite versus Pioneer or Lexus versus Toyota. While I cannot speak to the size of the capacitors, which was one of the few points you made, many of them also share similar chassis, heatsinks (and fans where applicable), controls, connections, and so on.<p>< April 26, 2002: Message edited by: dmeister ></p>

[Masherbrum]

YES THEY ARE DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<p>HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!<p>Badger someone else Dmeister.<p>Dan what have you decided on? (Something more productive here)<p>Masher

Wow! I never expected such a heated response to my innocent question. Although I thank you all for your responses and appreciate passion when it comes to high-quality audio, it turns out that NONE of you actually answered my initial question. Here was the dilemma:<p>-For $1000 I could buy a product that is THX certified from a very good company (Onkyo)<p>OR<p>-For $1000 I could buy a product that is NOT THX certified from a related company that is reputed to be of better build quality (Integra).<p>So, all are things being equal...my real question was this...how much of a sound improvement does one get from the addition of the post-processing that goes along with THX (ie decorrelation, etc)? Will I get more for my money with the Onkyo product, or will the actual SOUND produced be negligibly different as a result of this post-processing?<p>Lastly, I AM also considering the Marantz 8200 as I indicated in my other post. The only version I could afford would be the REFURBISHED model. So I''m still stuck with what choice would give me the most value for my money. I''m not in a rush, so I''m happy to wait for everybody''s input before making a decision.<p>THANKS EVERYONE!!!

Dan -<br /> What type of speaker arrangement are you going to be using? 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1?

For now...5.1. However, I''m always looking to the future and can see myself expanding to 6.1 or 7.1. In reality, that probably won''t be for a few years though.

I would go for the Onkyo with THX then. I do not believe the THX processing would do much if anything for 5.1 but it does seem to make a considerable difference in 6.1 and 7.1. At least in the listening tests I have done. I personally own a Onkyo DS797 and it performs superbly in 5.1(my existing setup) and I too bought it for the expansion capabilities down the road.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Masherbrum:<br /><strong>YES THEY ARE DIFFERENT!<br />Badger someone else Dmeister.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>?!? Yes, of course they''re different. That was never the point. And to think, all this time I thought <i>you</i> were the one doing the badgering.

[h2lentino]

As I understand it, THX-SELECT is just a certification that a unit meets THX criteria in it''s "SELECT" category. And of course there is THX-ULTRA the mother of all certifications.<p>< April 26, 2002: Message edited by: h2lentino ></p>

[Haywood]

I do not own one of the new Integra receivers, but I have an Onkyo Integra A-8190 integrated amp that I bought in 1987 and it still sounds great 15 years later. I''m currently using it in a secondary system to drive a pair of B&W DM610i speakers that ate my surround receiver for lunch.<p>I also own an Integra DPS 7.2 DVD player and have found both the build quality and performance to be exceptional.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scott Curtis:<br /><strong>I also own an Integra DPS 7.2 DVD player and have found both the build quality and performance to be exceptional.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Scott, would you mind giving me your opinion on the 7.2''s defect tracking? That is, how well it plays DVDs with minor surface scratches and other imperfections wihout locking up or skipping. I''m looking for a DVD player whose operation is robust enough to survive rental DVDs.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dan:<br /><strong>...it turns out that NONE of you actually answered my initial question...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi Dan, I''d still stick by first recommendation to go for the Integra 7.2, which does pick up THX Select certification and several other features, if you can scrape together another $100 or $200. Then you would have the Integra product with the THX certification.<p>Keep in mind that there are several aspects to THX certification, including the post-processing that you mentioned (e.g., Surround EX and Re-EQ) and the standards for power and performance. If you buy a quality receiver without THX certification (i.e., the Integra 6.3), you will still probaby get many of the benefits. Even if a model doesn''t have THX post-processing, it may still come with the manufacturer''s proprietary version of something similar. For instance, the Integra 6.3 doesn''t have Re-EQ, but it does have "CinemaFilter." I haven''t actually heard this in action, so I can''t comment on how well it works. Moreover, I am sure that several units without the THX certification could still perform close to THX standards (like the Denon 3802). However, I don''t know that the power output of the Integra 6.3 would meet THX Select standards though.<p>So, if you are definitely wanting either the Integra 6.3 or the Onkyo 797, and $1,000 is your limit, perhaps the Onkyo 797 would be the best bet (as Phenom suggested) -- short of listening to these two units side-by-side and making a truly informed decision.<p>If the Marantz 8200 is an option, and the fact that it is refurbished isn''t a concern for you, I feel that you would be getting very comparable performance with it. The Marantz units (particularly the 8200 and 9200) seem to be very well built pieces, and share many of the same features that the Onkyo and Integra units have (including THX Select certification). $1,000 is a good price for the Marantz, since I think it retails for closer to $1,500 or $1,600. Personally, I have been considering either the Integra 8.2 or Marantz 8200, myself.<p>< April 27, 2002: Message edited by: dmeister ></p>

[Haywood]

I don''t think I have found a rental disc that the DPS 7.2 wouldn''t play yet, and I''ve probably put at least 30 of them through it. The picture quality is outstanding and I have never regretted buying it. At the time, I had also looked at the progressive scan DPS 9.1 model. It actually cost less to buy the 7.2 and a DVDO iScanPlus scaler and I have never regretted the decision. The picture quality is superb. The player also has outstanding CD performance and is by far the best sounding CD player I have ever owned. I never use the unit''s digital output when listening to music. I haven''t bought any DVD-Audio discs yet, so I cannot report on that.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scott Curtis:<br /><strong>I don''t think I have found a rental disc that the DPS 7.2 wouldn''t play yet...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks, Scott. I appreciate the feedback.

[Hot_Monkey]

When I was a kid I ate a worm once. <p>Both Onkyo and Integra are made of metal, plastic and love diodes. <p>I prefer Kraft singles.<p>Oh, I''m sorry, I thought this was Phemon''s "confused post".<p>Monkey

[Hot_Monkey]

PS. The difference between THX Select and THX Ultra comes down to meeting THX playback standards and requirements within a smaller (THX Select) or larger (THX Ultra) room size. It''s simply a matter of cubic feet. THX Ultra2 is another story... there are some minor changes in the processing there.<p>Monkey

Wow. Such Emotional Reactions. <p>Ok, so I just bought a brand new DTR 7.2, thus it is still available. I believe what was meant was that the 7.1 was going away. The 7.2 will be around until at least Christmas, according to the news the dealer receives.<p>With regards to Integra vs Onkyo, there are different component quality aspects, such as gold leaf caps, but it could be argued that all the extra quality may or may not be noticable, unless you have the perfect room, perfect setup, perfect calibration etc. There may be a better life time issue, but time will only tell. If it lasts like my HK, who cares?<p>I got this amp because I finally got tired of having to plug and unplug my 24 year old HK system, just to switch inputs. True it has no HT capability at all, but it still kicks ass with the best of them. I plan to use it either to really piss off my neighbours <by bi-amping, or extending the sound to 2 more rooms>, or in some kind of grace co-existance with my newer set up.<p>I tried ARCAM, I tried Bryston (in the factory no less), and I am content with the Integra at the price point.<p>Oh yeah. Price. I''m in Canada, but got lucky none the less. When I finally decided, I went to a local dealer to start the turkey dance on price. He said I could pay $CDN 2100 + TAX for a new one, which was similar to other dealers in the area, or choose the display model for $CDN 1900 Tax In. The price was good, but there were only 2 display models, one fairly beat up, one not so bad. When I decided to go ahead, the manager asked an employee to rip out the display model (it was all nicely hooked up and packed into a cabinet), to which the employee replied that they had just opened a box that morning for another reason, but it had never been on the floor. So, I got a brand new, never used DTR 7.2 for SCDN 1900 Tax In, which is about $US 1130.<p>All in all, it seems good at this point! biggthumpup.gif border=0

My experience with Onkyo Integra is limited to a 6-disk CD changer I bought 6 years ago. The first one had a warped frame (did not sit flat) and I exchanged it for a second that still has intermittent changer problems in spite of two trips to the shop. I know this isn''t an amp - but for what it''s worth.<br />- Jim A.

[odeanoh]

I don''t know why I felt compelled to be dragged into this but... I bought an Onkyo cd player in 1992 and I was considering the Integra counterpoint. I called Onkyo and asked them what the difference was. The technical support guy told me that (in that case)the Integra line was inspected at a greater rate 1 in every 50 versus the Onkyo was inspected 1 in every 500. Otherwise they were the EXACT same unit with some minor cosmetic differences. I don''t know if this is true today but for, at least some of the products, I will bet you dollars to donuts it is.