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  1. #1
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    Default CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units





    I'm nearly a year behind schedule in purchasing a CD transport & DAC.  I keep looking at the newest Mac DVD/DVD-A/CD combo units.  Each year I keep hoping to see a Mac Universal player at CES.



     



    My current vintage Mac MCD7000 CD player (which sold from 1985-1987) has a sampling rate 176.4kHz.  D/A conversion is 14 bit (16 bit equivalent) & an error correction cross interleaved Reed Solomon code (CIRC).  I sold my Sony DVP-S9000ES for the Sony DVP-NS900V DVD & multichannel SACD player



     >>



    My Mac MX132 Pre/pro has a 24 BIT DSP (digital signal processors) Three 24 Bit dsp decode Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Digital & DTS; Six 24 Bit D/A & Two 24 Bit A/D.>>



    > >



    I've been looking at the MCD751 CD transport for years!



     



    The McIntosh MCD751 CD Transport>>



    > >



    The DAC I'm interested in is the Mac MDA700 which has an Eight Burr Brown 20 Bit D/A which automatically selects the correct sampling frequency to match the input signal requirements of 48 KHz., 44.1 KHz., or 32 KHz.



     





    >> 



    > >



    I'm also looking at a McIntosh MVP851 DVD/CD & DVD-A Player which has a D/A 24 Bit capable of sampling up to 192 KHz with 24 Bits of resolution.  There is one 2 channel 192 kHZ/24 bit DAC from DVD-A and three 2 channel 96 kHZ/24 bit DAC�s  for DVD with six channel audio.>>



    > >



    >>



    >



    Can someone please put all of the above information into "English" & tell me what all the numbers really mean & what I'm suppose to expect with these figures?     Is it "better" to just use my pre/pro with the transport or is the separate DAC the "better" way to go?  My buddies at Mac state the DAC is quite a bit more sophisticated than what's in my MX132.  I'm totally brain-dead on this subject.  I could use a 2nd, 3rd or 4th opinion right now. 



    > >



    Thanks in advance for your time & insight.>>



    Billy


  2. #2
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units



    PM WildBird..........

  3. #3
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units



    Date:11/4/2004 7:53:59 PM
    Author:Barney



    PM WildBird..........




    Thanks Barney!  I was able to locate several great website pages which broke several of my background questions into laymen's terms.  Many thanks to VTB & TurtleBeach/com





    Digital audio is made of lots of tiny 'snapshots' that happen many times a
    second. The 'size' of the individual 'snapshot' is expressed as the number
    of bits (0's and 1's, or 'off' and 'on' states) stored in a single digital
    'word', while the number of times each second that a 'snapshot' is taken is
    expressed as the 'sampling rate'. 

    So, you can look at digital audio as a sort of movie. The individual snapshots
    are 'frames' that go by fast enough to make the images appear to move. The
    rate at which the frames go by in a movie is expressed as frames per second
    (fps).

    The bits are pieces of each word, which is called a sample. In a CD player,
    there are 44,100 16-bit samples of the audio per second, and there are two
    streams for stereophonic playback. This makes for a 'sampling rate' that is
    called 'stereo 16-bit 44.1 kHz' (k = 1000, Hz = cycles per second). 




    WHY ARE THERE SO MANY DIFFERENT FORMATS?

    As in all things electronic, there are different standards for different
    formats developed by different companies. The most commonly used format for
    stereo digital audio in the home is the CD Audio format (Red Book audio).
    CD Audio is formatted as stereo 16-bit 44.1 kHz sampling rate. Here is a list
    of common digital audio formats with their bit depths and sampling rates:

    Format                              Bit Depth       Sampling Rate
    ------                                ---------       -------------
    CD Audio (stereo)                16 bits         44.1 kHz
    DAT (stereo)                       16 bits         48 kHz (most can also use 44.1 kHz)
    DAT (extended play)            16 bits         32 kHz
    MiniDisc (compressed)          16 bits         48 kHz
    MiniDisc (extended play)      16 bits         32 kHz
    ADAT XT (black face)         16 bits         48 kHz
    ADAT XT20                        20 bits        48 kHz
    DVD Audio (projected)         24 bits        96 kHz
    Pro MO disk                        24 bits        96 kHz (192 kHz, 88.2 kHz also used)

    In general, the greater the bit depth the higher the resolution and the lower
    the amount of noise in the audio signal. Also, the higher the sampling rate
    the greater the frequency response of the digital recorder.


    HOW DOES THE SAMPLING RATE AFFECT THE QUALITY OF THE RECORDING?

    At one-half the frequency of the sampling rate there is a sub-harmonic
    generated that needs to be filtered out so that it will not be heard by
    the listener after digital to analog conversion.
    This is called the Nyquist Frequency.

    The sampling rate of 44.1 kHz for CD Audio was chosen because it is a little
    more than twice the acknowledged upper limit of human hearing, 20 kHz
    (20,000 cycles per second). The Nyquist frequency oscillation occurs at
    22.05 kHz when a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz is employed.

    A steep filter is employed in typical CD players and DAT recorders that
    allows frequencies up to 20 kHz to pass through while almost completely
    filtering out the 22.05 kHz oscillations. This way the full 20 Hz - 20 kHz
    audio band can be reproduced, while the Nyquist frequency subharmonic is
    rendered inaudible.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units



    When considering bit depth (number of bits per sample), it is important to remember the physical limitations of analog devices like capacitors, resistors and other  in signal devices. The 16 bit word length (standard for CD-Audio) has a dynamic range of up to 96dB, meaning it can produce a level anywhere from no signal up to +96dB louder than no signal. However, nearly all analog components (including preamps, amps and such) usually have a dynamic range of anything from 90dB to 100dB. This is why Sony and Philips chose 16-bit as the word length when they developed the CD - it would match or exceed the dynamic range limitations of electronics.


     


    So, why do we have 24-bit format? Mostly for marketing. The engineering genius at Meridian (I forgot his name right now) presented a series of papers to the AES and the DVD-A consortium arguing for the ideal high resolution format. In his papers he pretty mcuh proved that the ideal bit depth would be 18-bits, which would better match the limitations of analog components without wasting storage space with useless data that exceeded the resolution of all of the gear used to record and playback the signal. However, in the professional world, 24-bit encoding was the standard (primarily to improve the resolution of signals that were processed in the digital domain - always a lossy procedure). As such, there was already a large supply of very good and increasingly affordable 24-bit AD/DA chips available. Also, with a large industry already saturated with 24-bit electronics and software, they could piggy-back on exsisting technologies and reduce the development, time to market and over all costs by going with a 24-bit system. The marketing people also knew that claiming to have 24-bit resolution would way outsell 18-bit claims in an instant.


     


    So, we have a 24-bit format that is overkill on many levels. However, the use of 24-bit data does not immediately translate to better sound. It only provides a medium where a better signal could be provided if the producer chooses to do so.


     


     

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units



    IG/COF: Thanks for posting.  There's quite a bit of information on DAC's & ADC's written by engineers for engineers.  It's a whole new subject to discuss once I have enough of a background to fully understand the concepts.  Please correct me if I misunderstand or misstate some of the theories.


     


    "Oversampling" is typically used to describe a technique used when transferring between the analogue and digital domain, where a signal is sampled many times over and above that actually required by the sampling frequency.  Oversampling in the context of the D-A process involves multiplying the sampling frequency by a whole number, typically between 4 and 32, or even higher.


     


    So, as an example, in �8x oversampling,� CD�s base rate of 4.4.1 kHz is raised to 352.8 kHz by introducing seven new �empty� samples between the original data samples. These new samples, though, are often not just empty strings of noughts, but based on mathematical models to assist the DAC to work more linearly with the extracted data.  Oversampling, as well as easing the workload of the anti-aliasing filter, which can now operate more gently at a higher frequency, can also reduce distortion created when those analogue signals are first turned from continuous, analog waveforms into stepped, digital, stair-like curves. 


     


    This quantization noise is now spread over a larger band after oversampling, and can even be somewhat shifted out of the audible envelope by the technique of noise-shaping. Sony/Philips� Direct Stream Digital, as used in SACD, takes this idea to its limit, in order to dump high levels of digital noise up to higher frequencies than are not directly audible.


     


    Upsampling is a solely digital domain process where the data stream is also stretched out by interpolation � guessing the points in between, again mathematically � and is typically used to refer to small, non-integer changes, such as from 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz. When the change is larger than this, such as 44.1 kHz to 192 kHz, �upsampling� is a more popular term.


     


    'There is apparently no extra information in the upsampled signal that was not present in the initial signal,� says Mike Story of dCS. �With a 44.1 kS/s input, both the input data stream and the upsampled data stream will only contain a spectrum that must be between 0 and 22.05 kHz and is probably only between 0 and 20 kHz.'


     


    'This conventional analysis starts from the viewpoint that the behavior of the ear can be described in mathematical terms using Fourier analysis.  This assumption is probably pretty good � it means we are interested in frequency responses, for example, and these do provide good guides to the performance of equipment and to descriptions of what we hear.  The analysis was right at the heart of the definition of the audio coding used on CDs.'


     


    �For those working with audio, it is also apparent that theories based on these descriptions are not completely adequate, and that there can be significant differences in the performances of pieces of equipment with similar "conventional" specifications.  It seems that two things are going on here: the ear may have more than one mechanism at work; and sine waves may not be the best function to use as the basis for analysis.  On the mechanism front, it seems highly likely that the ear has a sound localization mechanism ("where is it?") that is fast, and independent of the mechanism that says "it�s a violin," and that is related to transient response.  There may also be a third mechanism at work.


     


    On the analysis front, it may be that some form of wavelet is the best basis for mathematical modeling. The problem here is that sine-wave theory is relatively simple, and has been fully worked out by generations of mathematicians, following on from Fourier.  Wavelet maths is just plain hard work, and does not yet have anything like such a solid core of mathematical results to call upon.  Our ears, however, are not waiting.�

  6. #6
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units

    Billy: Check your email.  I sent you a hyperlink to the new Mac MVP861 Universal Player.  Rumor has it they're still having problems with parts.  It's suppose to roll out in the next three weeks.  You'll see it at CES in January 2005.  I'd suggest waiting for them to iron out all the bugs.  It should price at approx. $4,300.  I like the features!

    Sonically, the MVP851 isn't as good a unit as the MCD751 & MDA700.  And they use a completely different transport.  Buy the MCD751 & MDA700 DAC.  You won't regret it!  IMHO, they're probably the best audio source units Mac has come out with besides their newest MCD1000 transport & MDA1000 DAC. 

    You'll hear quite a difference between a $2,500 & a $8,000 DAC.  The store around the corner has sold roughly eight to ten MDA1000's this year.  If you get a chance to have the dealership A-B your MDA700 & their MDA1000, you'll agree.

    The holidays are fast approaching.  Hope you enjoy them!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units






    Emmett: Thanks for your insight & encouragement.  Since the MCD751 will be used extensively for listen to red book CD's, I'm sure we'll enjoy many hours of rediscovering new passages we've never noticed before.  Both the MCD751 CD transport & MDA700 DAC are expected to arrive by Thanksgiving.  Santa has promised he'll place them under the Christmas tree this year.  I'm looking forward to finally setting up a much-needed second equipment rack.




    We've critically listened to the MCD& MDA 1000 units over the last several weekends. I wish I had an extra +$15,000 to purchase them but will patiently wait a few years.  I just can't see buying that caliber of equipment with the speakers we currently own...




    MCD1000 CD Transport




    MDA1000 DAC



    MDA1000 "Topless"

  8. #8
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units

    sorry for the late reply. I didn''t check my PMs so I didn''t know you PMed me.

    what you found is what i am going to say i guess.

    That CD are 16 bits with 44.1 kHz. and 16 bits have a maximum signal to noise ratio of 96 dB. Each bit equal 6 dBs and each bits double the audio dynamic.

    Our human ears can hear around 20 hz - 20 khz. and cd sampling at 44.1 khz double more than that amount. Why sampling above 20 khz (or 22 kHz) is because to reduce the error. 44.1 khz sound have the quality of a 22.05 khz in a real world because half of it causes error. That''s why its need to be double. Why DVD-A support 96 khz probably use to use more bandwidth to feel safer or something. Because most speakers can do up to around 20 kHz and quadruple that sampling rate probably to reduce the chances of error. But i doubt people can hear a difference between 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units





    Date:11/29/2004 5:02:24 PM
    Author:WildBird

    sorry for the late reply.  I didn't check my PMs so I didn't know you PMed me.

    what you found is what i am going to say i guess.

    That CD are 16 bits with 44.1 kHz.  and 16 bits have a maximum signal to noise ratio of 96 dB.  Each bit equal 6 dBs and each bits double the audio dynamic.

    Our human ears can hear around 20 hz - 20 khz.  and cd sampling at 44.1 khz double more than that amount.  Why sampling above 20 khz (or 22 kHz) is because to reduce the error.  44.1 khz sound have the quality of a 22.05 khz in a real world because half of it causes error.  That's why its need to be double.  Why DVD-A support 96 khz probably use to use more bandwidth to feel safer or something.  Because most speakers can do up to around 20 kHz and quadruple that sampling rate probably to reduce the chances of error.  But i doubt people can hear a difference between 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz.



    Wildbird: Thanks for your reply!  I found out quite a bit while you were "away." 



    The MCD751 was used by both McIntosh Labs & Wadia.  It was built by Teac Esoteric.  The McIntosh MCD751 was $2500 while the others were higher.  According to one of my Mac sources on the West Coast, the slight "hum" of the MDA700 may actually be a design flaw due to the size of the transformer.  The transformers were originally suppose to be 5" tall but they opted to put 3" tall units into the MDA700's.  The top of the unit is known to vibrate more the the shorter transformer being closer to the frame.  I understood they later replaced the shorter transformer & even looked into a prototype aluminum base for the MDA700.

    According to another Mac source in California, Mac was suppose to have placed a "stinky substance" or a pad on the underside of the top of the MDA700 to resolve the hum issue. -LOL- I'll have to open the MDA700 back up after Christmas morning to take a picture for the seller.



    The MVP861 is $4100 and will ship starting next week to the US market.  The chip issue is the chip in the new remote and the redesigned hand held remotes will go out in December.  The MVP861 uses the latest Burr Brown DACs in a balanced configuration.  The PCM specs are 24/ 192 and the DSD is well, DSD.  Ted Saito, our CD DVD engineer worked a long time to address the high distortion of SACD playback.  This THD + Noise is usually in the 1 to 3% range at 10 KHz on most high end players. This will be reduced by 10 to 12 DB in the MVP861 and you will notice the difference in clarity.  Two channel PCM or SACD is outputed through balanced XLR connectors and everything else is RCA, two for stereo and 6 more for 5.1 PCM and DSD.  The MVP861 uses a high speed implementation of the high end Denon transport.  DVI/HDMI are not supported.  Video outputs are component, 'S' and composite.  The audio section of the MVP861 is very strong and the video is clear and noise free.  The MVP861 has 75 ohm co-ax and toslink digital outputs.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: CD Transports, DAC''s & DVD/DVD-A & CD combo units



    Edited. This is forum, not a classified ad.



    Barney


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